Stay With the Question with Joey Lott

In this episode of The Spiritual Artist Podcast, CJ Miller speaks with coach and author Joey Lott about the actual nature of experience, the limits of the thinking mind, and the freedom that becomes possible when we stop trying to control every sensation, emotion, or moment of discomfort.

Joey shares his own journey as a long-time spiritual seeker who once believed peace would come through elevated states, spiritual practices, and finding the “right” answer. Over time, he discovered that true freedom did not come from escaping experience, but from becoming genuinely curious about what is actually happening in the present moment.

Together, CJ and Joey explore chronic tension, social media triggers, somatic awareness, creativity, and the courage it takes to live from the unknown. Their conversation invites listeners to stop collapsing life into labels and instead remain open, curious, and alive to the mystery of direct experience.

Three key themes emerge throughout the conversation:

• The actual nature of experience — learning to meet life directly rather than immediately labeling or resisting it. Joey invites us to look beneath labels like anxiety, depression, stress, or pain and ask, “What is actually here right now?” Instead of rushing to fix, explain, or escape discomfort, he suggests meeting experience with curiosity.

• Staying with the question — discovering that openness and inquiry can sometimes be more transformative than rushing toward certainty or answers. Rather than using questions only to find quick answers, Joey describes inquiry as a living practice. The question itself can open space, soften urgency, and keep us from collapsing life into rigid certainty.

• The body as a doorway to aliveness — recognizing chronic tension, bracing, and overthinking while allowing the body to reconnect us with presence and authentic living. Joey talks about chronic bracing, tension, and the way many of us live from the thinking mind. By noticing the body and allowing feeling to reawaken, we begin to experience life more directly, even when it feels messy, uncomfortable, or unknown.

CJ and Joey also discuss creativity as a spiritual practice, the role of music and memory in awakening aliveness, and how true creativity often emerges from stepping into the unknown rather than repeating what is already familiar.

For more information about Joey’s work or to schedule a coaching session, visit joeylott.com. His book, “The Best Thing That Never Happened,” is on Amazon.

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Want to learn more about CJ Miller? Check out his Spiritual Artist Retreats, 1:1 Personal Coaching, and Speaking Engagements at www.spiritualartisttoday.com. His retreats are designed to help you reconnect with your Creative Intelligence and express your true artistic voice. You can also find his upcoming schedule there, and his book, The Spiritual Artist, is available on Amazon.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Maybe I've had this all wrong. Maybe I've been overlooking something uh very important, very core. And that was that shift. I I wouldn't have been able to express it in the these words then, but in retrospect, I would say I started to realize that I had never actually really been directly interested or curious about my actual experience. I was always making assumptions about it. So I would assume I had a story about it. Oh, this is anxiety. Oh, this is depression. What whatever story, I would have a story about it, and then I was looking for a solution to it. But if you said, Well, what what are you actually experiencing? I'd just say, Well, it's it's anxiety, it's depression, it's it's you know, it's lack, it's whatever, some bad thing, and I need a solution to it. But the the what I came to realize is I didn't actually know what it was, just calling it something is not the same as actually be really being in contact with it and really knowing anything. Uh so to for me, this this business of of the actual nature of experience, it's about really being curious about what is this right now.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Welcome to the Spiritual Artist Podcast. This is Chris Miller. I invite you to join me as I interview artists from a variety of disciplines. We'll share powerful stories and lessons learned while making their art. Good day, listeners. This is the Spiritual Artist Podcast. This is CJ Miller, your host. Um, wow, I have a really interesting guest today. I'm excited to jump into this podcast. Um, he reached out to me, he listened to one of my uh podcasts, and I think it it inspired him to talk and share his ideas. So we're just gonna jump right in on this and and kind of have an open conversation. I don't know really where we're gonna go. So so uh I would like to introduce Joey Lott. He explores the actual nature of experience. He invites those who long for unconditional peace and true creative freedom to inquire together to find a new way. We're he's there's a couple words in his bio here that we're gonna unpack. He has worked since 2013 as a coach to point people to discovering new possibilities. You can learn more about his work at his website, joe l-o-t.com, joeelott.com. You know, I want to tell you, listeners, I think this is very fascinating. This is the first time I've interviewed someone that doesn't come to me with a name, like a proper name or a business or or you know, master Joey Lott or anything. So I'm excited to talk to this, what I believe is probably a very humble, real person. So good morning, uh Joey. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

Very good. It's nice to be here. Thanks, CJ.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

I'm excited. You know, like I said, I don't think I've, you know, most people they send me this huge bio, you know, pages and pages, and and and it sounds like you were you were struggling just to come up with four sentences, um, which is a good thing, I think. And I wanted to, yeah, tell me why you think it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Oh, I well, uh it it's definitely been uh a blessing in terms of uh being true to myself and what it is that I really want to uh share uh and and how I want to show up in this world. And it's certainly also a challenge in terms of uh how to fit into the the boxes of success in this world, uh, because there's a prescription for that, uh, which is to have a title and to have a very well-crafted story about you know the struggle and how I overcame the struggle and now how I have the new the new thing, and everybody else should be interested in the new thing because it's so intriguing and interesting. Um and and I I've I've certainly explored and played with that uh over time, but I just could never really make it work or fit for me because it just wasn't aligned with what I'm really interested in.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

You know, it's interesting. Um, I I I feel very similar to that. And um I find sometimes when I listen to podcasts, the first 10 minutes is just a bio read. And and when I do my podcast, I just want to jump in, right? I let's just talk. Let's talk about now. Let's talk about who we are now. I I I don't really want to unpack your entire life.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

There can certainly be some value, I think, in being able to um tell some kind of a story that invites a person to uh be able to recognize something of themselves in that so that they can recognize, oh yeah, I've I've been struggling with that. Uh, I've been looking for uh some kind of solution to this. So that lets them know, oh, this might be for me. Um and still at the same time, what I found is there's there it turns out there's kind of an energetic resonance. If a person is the the right fit, there's something in them that's gonna know that. Uh, and if they're not, then they'll also know that. And they'll just say, this is too weird. This is uh, you know, I don't understand this, and they'll go somewhere else, and that's fine because it's not for them right now, but for the right person, uh, they're there's just something they just it's like, wow, this is different. I I'm curious to know more. There's something about the the energy of it or the cadence or something that's just inviting to them to learn more. Uh and I found that that that tends to be a better, uh, a better a better way to approach it is just for me to trust in that.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

I uh I agree with that as well. I um that's been a journey for me, as many of us. Um, I I feel like in the last year or two, um, I was so focused on my mind and what my mind was telling me. And I'm just kind of it's like I'm I'm re uh it's like I'm shutting down my computer and reset, rebooting. Yeah. And I'm changing the way I view life. And instead of coming from the mental aspect, I'm coming from the felt experience. Yeah. You know, and that's why I'll tell you, when I when you reached out to me, and you know, I talked to you, I'm like, oh, I like this guy. And it was only later that I'm like, what is his title? You know, like like because that's the backup, right? What what what what how do I describe him? He's a person. Well, isn't that enough?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. And and I really like what you said about uh, you know, the over the last year being kind of in your mind and then having this kind of reset. I think uh I can relate to that. I and I I I s I I imagine maybe um other people who are listening to this might recognize something of that in themselves as well. Uh maybe it's just something about the overall energy of things, or maybe it's just for a certain subgroup of people that that's just been a theme of kind of they've like you discovered something previously, and then you kind of went into this mind space of trying to figure out okay, now how do I how do I succeed in this world? How do I how do I make it all happen? Uh, and then realizing that's not exactly that's not exactly how I want to be living my life, and then coming more back into feeling and and connecting to the heart.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Definitely. You know, um, I think there's two types of people right now with all that's going on in the world. There's the people that are are are venturing out and and being curious, like you said, having a sense of inquiry and saying, Oh, what if I what if I do reboot my system? What what if I'm willing to try something new? What if I don't have to know everything? And then there's the other people that are just digging their heels in, really digging their heels into whatever beliefs that they were handed down, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:17

You know, yeah, yeah, and it's tempting because uh I mean, even earlier today, I looked at something uh on on YouTube. I don't even know how I came across it. It works that way, you know. I don't even know how I came across it, but I came across something, and it was very political, and uh, and it was presenting this narrative of uh, you know, this is the right way to see things. And you know, there's this terrible, terrible thing that's happening, and you should see it this way, because if you don't see it this way, then you're wrong. And I started thinking, oh yeah, maybe I should see it that way. Uh, maybe I, you know, maybe I'm approaching my life all wrong. Maybe I should do do something very different. Maybe I should be, you know, out there on the front lines protesting. And I, you know, I kind of tried that on for a second, and I was like, eh, I this is just not gonna, it's just not true for me right now. You know, I'm never say never, but it's just not true for me right now. Uh and but but you know, it's it it is seductive. I mean, that's that that narrative is presented uh with so much uh emotional intensity that it's easy for me to just kind of get sucked into that a little bit and really think, oh, maybe maybe I've been wrong. Maybe I should think this way, maybe I should believe this way, maybe they've got maybe they've got it figured out.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Exactly. I mean, it it's the challenge of of our lifetime, isn't it? You know, it's the challenge of our lifetime, just all these messages are being thrown at us all day long. And to just, I'm not saying ignore them, listeners, um, but I'm not saying jump on board either. Just kind of watch them, right? Just is that so? You know, I love that. That saying, is that so? Uh right, and just hold it. I love the term, I love this hold it lightly. This is one of my favorite phrases, just hold it lightly.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Um but it's a challenge. Certainly is, yeah. And and recently, actually, when I was watching that, uh, I was thinking that I I have uh taken a position over uh it's been a long time now. It's been my gosh, I don't know, it's been probably like 20 years, uh, that I just took this position of I'm not interested. I don't want to hear the news. I don't want to know because because uh I I went I went down that path a long time ago and and it just didn't lead anywhere good for me. Um and again, everybody's got their own path, and I I have no idea what what's right for somebody else. But just for me, I realized that wasn't good for me. That was just getting me all agitated about something that I wasn't actually going to do anything about, or I didn't know how to do anything about. And meanwhile, I was not actually taking good care of myself. I wasn't really observing what my needs, what my authentic expression in this life is. And so I was so preoccupied with what's the right thing to do, what, how should I be living this life? How should I be thinking? How can I control things? What's my role? How do I how do I play my part? And I was overlooking my own self. And so I realized, okay, that's that's just not working for me. So I made a choice just to turn all that off. No, no television, no social media, no radio, none of it. I just no interest. Um, and that's been very good for me. That's served me very well. But today, when I was listening to that thing, uh, I I was feeling how I was getting agitated. And and I and I was thinking, is this is this uh is this actually a problem? This feeling that I'm having, is this actually a problem? Is this something that I need to try to avoid? And I had this thought, maybe there is some value in playing with uh with with with media and and just you know exposure to media, and then noticing am I able to have a good experience of that? Can I can I remain uh centered, let's say in in not needing to know, in not needing to take a position, in just being gen genuinely curious and receptive without having to indulge a compulsion to take that on as a new identity or some new role. So uh so that was an interesting experience for me, just to start to play with that idea of maybe I don't need to say no to these things. Maybe I don't need to turn that off. Uh yeah, it was just an interesting experience.

SPEAKER_00 13:07

It is, it's it's a spiritual practice, right? I mean, you know, can you can you look at it? And it's challenging because you know, they know everything, right? They know every little weakness we have, whether for me it's the environment or you know, and it there's certain we all have triggers. We all have triggers. Um, but you're right to be able to just stay centered, and and I'm gonna go back to to the first sentence you gave me in your bio. You said Joey explores the actual nature of experience. So, how is how can our listeners um navigate uh this world, this social media, this news world, and focus on the nature of experience? Can you can you expound on that? Sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Uh so what I what I found, and uh now I was I would say I was a fairly intense spiritual seeker for uh many years. And so I was reading the books and going to the workshops and doing the you know the all the things, you know, the the kirtans and the Reiki healings and all kinds of things. And uh I had nice experiences sometimes, but uh I thought my goal was I I wasn't really clear on the goal exactly, but vaguely I thought my goal must be to just have nice experiences. If I could just stabilize in nice experiences, then that must be what I'm really seeking for. And uh I got increasingly frustrated because I didn't seem to be able to achieve that. I could get, I could get these very elevated states. I could meditate, I would, you know, I was I had a meditation practice, I would meditate in the morning for several hours, and I could get into this very kind of elevated state, or I would I had a prayer practice, an affirmative prayer practice, and I would do that until I could get into this very elevated state, like I was riding a high. And uh that would be really nice until it would I would interface with the rest of my life, and all of a sudden it was all gone. And I was in this stressed, anxious, reactive mode. Um, and so after many years of that, I kind of crashed and burned in a pretty bad way. And it was only coming through that uh when I I no longer could actually do any of those things because I it was so depleted. I was so physically depleted that I I really literally didn't have the energy to be able to do any of those things any longer. And and that put me right up against the immediacy of what's actually here directly in my actual experience, which was what I had always been trying to avoid through all the other things I was trying to avoid was actually here because I the the the presumption was there must be something wrong with this, there must be something wrong with whatever is going on here because I don't know, I feel kind of uncomfortable, and therefore that must be wrong. And the promise is if I do these other things, I can get to that elevated state and I'll be able to stay there somehow magically forever and ever and ever. But when I couldn't do those things any longer, and I was just right up against this, and I'm I'm desperately scrambling for okay, how do I, what do I there must be some way out of this, and there wasn't. And uh, and that was when it started to click, and it wasn't like this epiphany, it wasn't like this one you know massive experience, but it just there was this shift of realizing maybe I've had this all wrong, maybe I've been overlooking something uh very important, very core. And that was that shift. I I wouldn't have been able to express it in the these words then, but in retrospect, I would say I started to realize that I had never actually really been directly interested or curious about my actual experience. I was always making assumptions about it. So I would assume I had a story about it. Oh, this is anxiety, oh, this is depression. What whatever story, I would have a story about it, and then I was looking for a solution to it. But if you said, Well, what what are you actually experiencing? I'd just say, Well, it's it's anxiety, it's depression, it's it's you know, it's lack, it's whatever, some bad thing, and I need a solution to it. But the the uh what I came to realize is I didn't actually know what it was, just calling it something is not the same as actually be really being in contact with it and really knowing anything. Uh so to for me, this this business of of the actual nature of experience, it's about really being curious about what is this right now, without having to put labels on it, without having to go back to the past and reference past things and say, oh, this is depression, this is anxiety, this is stress, this is worry, without doing that. Because only because, and not because those are bad, but only only because or I should say if, only if uh that hasn't worked. I mean, because if it if it worked, great. I mean, no problem with that, right? If you do something and you get the result that you're looking for, that's that's awesome. But for me, what I found was I it it didn't work. I was doing the thing over and over and over, and it wasn't giving me the result that I wanted. And so then I finally kind of had to look and and find out what am I actually dealing with? And and and the dawning realization was I I can I I I need something really different. Because the old way just isn't working. So that's what gave rise to this discovery of okay, let me actually look at look at it is not quite the right term. Could say feel into, be with, not even that, it's like be as this without trying to get out of it and then say something about it or control it. So and it's kind of I don't know if that maybe that's an introduction to the idea, but I also realize that for most people, that probably doesn't make a lot of sense. Uh for some people it will make sense, but for other people, they're gonna say, okay, you didn't you said a lot of words, but you didn't say anything.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Uh, I don't think so, Joey. I I have to tell you, you're right, right like on the nose with my experience lately and um the nature of experience. And so I'm gonna repeat back what I heard. Okay, and then you can tell me if I if I didn't understand it. So I had some issues in the last uh last year with some pain that wouldn't go away, chronic pain. And um, it's just as it's just like pain when you read a social media post. I mean, that's a form of pain when you see something and it triggers you. But this pain wouldn't go away. I mean, it just wouldn't go. I took, I took pills, I went to the doctor, I went to so many different specialists, I had MRIs done, I had exams done, I had you wouldn't want to know all the things I had done. I mean, I had hands where they shouldn't be, all sorts of things, but chronic pain. And finally, I thought, what if I just let it be? What if I just feel it? Just just like you said, would you say be as it? Be as the pain, just just be it. Because there was no choice. There is no choice. You know, I kept trying to take an aspirin or take a tyanol or use a heat rub or a heat pad or something to stop it, or if I could only take a steroid or some newfound drug. But the truth is, I just had to say, okay, there you are. And and listeners, I'm not saying it went away. I'm just like, oh, there you are. You're on this journey with me. You're right there. And so I love that the actual nature of experience, how much right we try to push the experience away. We try to take a drink or or go out with friends or buy something new instead of just saying, Oh. And you know, and the other way we push it away, which you just what you said so wonderfully, Joey, is we try to go back and look at our history. What did I do to cause this? What what did my mother do that that made this happen? And really, what if we just sit there and go, uh, I'm feeling abandoned right now? Or, you know, so I don't know. Did I hear that correctly? Kind of what you were talking about?

SPEAKER_01 22:00

And yeah, I would say that that's that's definitely pointing in in the direction, yeah, for sure. And and and I just want to clarify it, not that what you said uh suggested otherwise, but just for to clear my own conscience about it. Um I I'm certainly not suggesting to anybody that they should or shouldn't do anything. I mean, I think uh there there may well be a time and a place for all of it. So there may be a time and a place for the pill and for the heat rub and for the hands where you know the sun don't shine and all the rest. Um and there may be a time, and I and I think probably there will inevitably be a time uh for all of us in which those things just aren't working. Um so when they're working, when there's a hope that they will work, what great. And when there is a time when there's something in me that says, these aren't working, and the stress and strain of trying is now producing diminishing returns. It's like, okay, now the pain of trying is actually the greatest pain. That that that pain of continuing to try is greater than the pain I'm trying to avoid through all of the trying. Then for me, that's a reminder and an invitation. Perhaps I don't need to try. Perhaps at least for one moment right now, whether I do something different tomorrow, fine. But right now, perhaps I could just stop trying to distance myself from this or control this or even understand what it is. Uh and and and also just you know, and one other point about that is that sometimes the analysis is useful. Um, like where did this come from? What did I do to cause it? Was it because of my mother? I mean, I think that that analysis has its time and place. It has for me. There's definitely been some value sometimes in some of that. But the same thing is I've always found that only goes so far. So it's great, it can take you up to that point. It can take me up to that point. And there's value in that, but it can't bring me beyond that. It can't bring me to what what lies beyond that destination. And uh so so for me, it's about this ongoing, living inquiry and exploration that is it's always ongoing. It's not like, okay, now I've figured out the the thing and I've done it and I'm now going to be coasting in life forever and ever. It's just this ongoing, living edge of, okay, and what about now? And what about now? And if right now the answer that seems authentic to me is see the doctor, or if the answer that seems authentic is, okay, let me analyze what did I do to produce this, or if the solution is let me change something in my diet, okay, great. And if what's really authentic that's coming up for me is just stop just for a moment. And and just be really genuinely curious about this, not as a way of controlling it or labeling it or understanding it or anything, but just for one moment. What if I don't know? What if I really don't know? Like if I take the label off of it, I mean, I can call it pain, and that that's a serviceable description. I mean, if you go to the doctor and the doctor's like, what well, what's bothering you? Like, I don't know. Well, that's going to be a really weird visit. You know, it's it's helpful if you say it's pain and they say, okay, where's the pain? And you can point, and that's all, you know, is it sharp pain? Oh, yes, it's this kind of pain. That's useful for that context. But in the moment where I've reached the the limit of that, and I'm just not getting the results, then I found it's more useful just to take the labels off and approach it in a really fresh way and say, what if I don't know? And what if I don't even need to know? Instead of grasping for, is it this, is it that? What if I just stay with this very open, curious uh approach of what is this? without having to close that down and say, ah, now I know what it is. But it's just remains as a question of what is this?

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah, it's lovely. I mean, it's it's it's very true. It's I was gonna say it is an and statement. I mean, it it's both. Um I like this. Let's let's unpack this a little bit. There's a lot of people listening, or at least I know, that inquiry, inquiry, can let's unpack that a little bit because um people are going, what is that? Inquiry, isn't that what I do when I, you know, I'm looking for a job, or I don't know. But what what is it in your uh vocabulary? How would you describe being in a state or maintaining that state of inquiry?

SPEAKER_01 27:11

Yeah, so I would say that it's it's sort of what I was just pointing to or hinting at um in regard to just staying with or as the question. Because what I have found at least, and maybe other people have a different experience, but it seems to me that the the society that I have lived in is very focused on getting an answer. I mean, when I went to school, I was graded on the answers that I gave, right? I mean, that was that's how it worked. If I gave the right answer in air quotes, then I got the good grade. And if I gave the wrong answer, I didn't get a good grade. And so I became very focused on answers. Um, just the the question is all only pointing to the answer. That's that's the only value of the question, is just to get the right answer. And so my mind was trained to always pounce on the answer, and I need I need to get the right answer and I need to get as quickly as possible. So it just created this habit of urgency and always seeking for the answer to close things down, to not live in this openness, as if just closing things down could give me some kind of desirable outcome. And it seemed that way because again, it was all about getting the grade, the approval, the performance. And that took me as far as it did. Um, and and and I got, you know, I did pretty well in that category. I got good grades. Uh, I I did well in career and and and money-wise. Um, but it came at a pretty significant cost for me, which was my mental health, my emotional health, physical health. And so uh I learned through that that that wasn't giving me the outcome that I wanted. I could, I, I could perform very well, you know. It's like jump through the hoop, I could jump through the hoop. And then they give me the reward. Here's your cookie, here's your, you know, here's the money. Yeah. And and but then it got to this point, it's like, is this it? Is this what life is about? I just jump through the hoop, I get the cookie. Because if that's what life is, I don't know. I mean, it like for me, it was like, I'm not sure if I want to keep going on this way. Like, oh, this doesn't, this is not a nice ride. And so again, through difficulty, through getting to this place in my life where it it really wasn't working for me. I wasn't able to make it work. I reached a pretty significant dead end because like my my energy, my physical health, my mental health, all of my health really just collapsed. And so that led me to really have to question what what it was that I was doing, because I knew that what I was doing was not working, even though I had done supposedly all the right things and supposedly was succeeding in those things, but it was not producing the outcome that I really wanted, not inside. So it was through that then that I started to uh do all this questioning. And what I came to discover was that just getting getting the right answer did not give me what I wanted. I it might it might give other people what they want, but it was really not giving me what I wanted. And what I found was that what I had overlooked in all of that equation was the value of the question itself. Not as just a way to get to the answer, but what if I just stay with the question? And and so to stay with the question is is open. The question is open. The question does not actually just by itself, the question does not need an answer. It's complete in itself, right? The the question is there complete. Um, and so if I just stay with the question, then it starts to open up my life. So I so I I was uh I was and am very uh I have an affinity for a uh teacher, I don't know if you would really even call him a teacher, but a person from um who lived in the uh early part of the 19th, uh 1900s, uh named Ramana Maharshi. And he had a teaching that was I think he's most known for, which is a teaching of who am I? So the the question is just who am I? And um and so that really started to to be uh a living process for me is just not necessarily the question, who am I specifically, but just question in general, just to stay with the question. Uh because the the one of the difficulties with that specific question or any specific question, so who am I? Then my mind, and I think most people's minds is looking for is looking for uh the answer, right? If I oh, if I can get the right answer, then I'll get the prize. Who am I? Oh, I am I am Joey. Who am I? Oh I'm you know, I'm this person, I'm that person. But that no matter which answer I can give, you know, if I can say I'm the successful person, I'm you know, I'm the winner, I'm the whatever the good, supposedly good thing is, I ended up feeling empty, hollow. Just didn't satisfy. But what I learned was if I just stay with who am I, and notice the openness of that. That points to something or is something that has taken a lot of acclim acclimating to that, but that has been a a pretty radical shift for me, uh, so that I'm I'm able more and more to live in that completeness of the question rather than trying to collapse it down into some finality or certainty that I can then wear as a badge or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

You know, this this has come up for me in uh a couple times. Uh in my interview with uh Rabbi Rami Shapiro, he mentioned this. And um I love I love I love it, and so I'm gonna have to ponder this. Um I also I I like the part where you said collapse it. You know, when we cut when you answer, you collapse it. You're right. It the minute you answer it, you're limiting it. It's sort of like the reason I'm not a big fan of a lot of words because words limit. The minute you put a name to something, the minute you name it, you have limited it. You've limited this what I would call the spiritual essence of it. The spiritual essence is is eternal. It's everywhere, it's omnipresent. And and then the minute you name it, it becomes a thing. And in our society, we've gone crazy with names. You know, people are fighting over names of of everything, uh, including their God, themselves, who they are, what religion they practice, what the country's identity is. So I love that to um just leave it open. Yeah. And I I'm really focused on somatic awareness. And even when I say that, leave it open. I could just feel my shoulders opening up and going, ah, you know, I I love to tell my listeners, you can feel sometimes you can feel the truth, not in your head, but in your body. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, you just go, ah, be more open, right? So it keeps it, it keeps it. Go ahead. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Oh, I just I definitely agree with that. I I think that that was that's been another for me, a very significant piece of this is the somatic component. Because uh otherwise, the I think the societal training for me, at least, and I think for many people in this certainly in American culture, um, is very mental. Uh, because again, it's about get the right answer, memorize the right thing, be able to perform on the test. And and our whole uh I our whole identity becomes centered around how well can you do that? And so there's a lot tied up in that, at least has been for me. How how well can I perform? Repeat back the supposedly right answers. And so then uh that that really is kind of cutting off the person from the rest of their body, because that's not important in that equation. It doesn't matter how you feel, it doesn't matter how any of that. All that matters is did you get the right answer on the test? And uh, or or did you say the right thing on when you were on NBC or when you know, whatever? It's like you because you you're gonna be criticized, you're gonna be judged uh for your performance, whether you said the right thing. And meanwhile, the the actual lived experience, which is feeding back constantly every second, is yes, but how am I actually showing up? What's going on here? Actually, in the felt experience. And uh for me, I was bracing. That became my how I lived my life was bracing, which is no surprise because if I'm supposed I'm constantly afraid of being judged and criticized, well, I'm gonna brace. Like, oh, I I don't want to get it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:25

Um and and and I when I first became aware of that, I I it was shocking and kind of terrifying because I I realized, wow, if if this insight is correct, which it really felt true, that um the real problem that I'm that I'm actually experiencing is this bracing. I mean, that's what's I'm I'm I'm certain all the time there's a problem, there's a problem, there's a problem, and I'm looking, okay, what is the problem? Is it this, that, or the other? But I became aware, oh, actually, what I'm interpreting as a problem is that I'm bracing. I'm just constantly tense. And if if I'm correct about that, I am so clueless, I had no idea what what do I do about this. And then uh uh the the next insight was well just be here and and just stop the the the usual habit, not try to force a change, but actually be present as the impulse to tense is there and just choose to whatever degree is possible to not indulge that. And I thought that's really terrifying because how long is this gonna last? I don't know how to do it. It's so frustrating and uh so that that has been for me, that's been a that was a huge discovery, and it's continuing that's an ongoing process of noticing this tension, this frustration that arises. I've got to get it, I've got to figure it out, I've gotta defeat this, I've gotta, I've gotta relax.

SPEAKER_00 39:19

It's like, oh, which makes it worse. Yeah. It you know, this goes right back to what I discovered with my chronic uh pain was it was chronic tension. It's chronic tension, which was showing up in my groin area because that's where your everything comes together. And um, you know, I you're right. The more little little I say, little little CJ is like, well, I'm gonna fix this and I'm gonna force myself not to be. What are you talking about? You're being more chronically tense, trying to relieve the tension. You you have to be lightly, you have to be like, Oh, there it is again. There, that there it is again. This person is, I feel in the presence of this person that my body's tensing. Yeah, and and it's and it's that curious, right? Isn't that interesting? Not stop. It's a tricky thing, isn't it? It really is. It it really is a tricky, tricky thing to to to just notice it. And and but I have, you know, um, Joey, I've I'm kind of like I told you about recalibrating. Um I've led my whole life up here, and I'm changing to live it, and listeners, I'm pointing to my head, and I'm listening and I'm changing to living it from my heart. I want to, I want to to experience life from a lived experience. I want to lead with my lived experience. The mind, I'm not saying throughout the mind, folks. We the mind is a wonderful tool. It helps me fix uh the sink or figure out how to get my laptop to work, but it's not the leader, or at least I don't feel it's a leader. And and Joey, you might have a different I think it's a tool, but the leader comes from this knowing, this this um experience, you know, for me. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

I definitely agree. Uh the to what I've observed is that the the thinking mind, I agree with you, it's a I don't think that there's any that there are any mistakes. Uh I I like this expression, it's kind of like a southern Christian uh expression, but you know, God don't make no junk. I like that because that that just summarizes it to me. I mean, I don't think there's any mistakes, but I I do think that um we can uh learn to use the the wrong tool for the wrong purpose. It's sort of like that idea if all you have is a hammer, then all the world looks like nails, kind of business. And I think that that's how we we've kind of been trained is to think uh that the only tool we have is the mind, is the thinking mind. And therefore, that's all that we see. And and what is the thinking mind designed for? I think it seems to me, the thinking mind is designed to solve problems. So if that's the only tool that I think I have, then what am I gonna see? An awful lot of problems.

SPEAKER_00 42:22

That's a good point. That's a wonderful statement.

SPEAKER_01 42:24

And and so I I kind of I realized, well, that's not how I want to live my life. That's just not working for me. And so even though that was the only tool that I knew that I had, there's gotta be either there's another way, and I'm pretty sure there's another way. Or if there's not, I'm you know, I'm gonna die trying. I'm I'm gonna I'm not just gonna go down with this ship and say this was the only way. The only way was this tool of the thinking mind. Uh I want to find out, is there another way? And and I I definitely agree with you. I have found that the the heart is another way, and it's another way that it involves a lot of feeling, and therein kind of lies the rub because when the only habit uh that I had was to try to numb myself by bracing, then to start to allow that to open and unwind can feel really uncomfortable. It's sort of like when if my foot goes to sleep, and then when it starts, you know, I stand up and I kind of shake it a little bit and it starts to come back awake. Ooh, I don't I don't like that. It's like this is uncomfortable. You know, it's scary to me. I mean, like intellectually, I know all is well, but uh like The felt experience seems kind of overwhelming. It's so much sensation. Oh no, what is this? Am I dying? Is it something really scary? And to me, that that's a good analogy for how I experience the reawakening of feeling in general. If I've because I live my life in this numb, tense, closed-down state. Not because I didn't know I was doing that. That was just how I had learned. And to start to allow that to reawaken, I I every day of my life, I'm I it's like the pins and needles are there. It's like, oh, I don't know about this. But then I remember, okay, that that other way wasn't working. So uh and so far, reliably, this way is working. I I don't know whether it will work in the future. I don't know about any of that. I I really can't know because it's it's uh seems to be unknown, at least in that way. But uh so far it's been very reliable. I have like I haven't died yet. And not only have I not died, but I feel like I've been blessed with life uh for the first time, because before I was just surviving. It's like I was always the I was like, okay, if I can just get through this, then one day I'll be able to live. And through this new way, which we can call by many names, but let's say through the way of the heart. Oh, I love that. Then, oh, here is life. It's messy, it's unknown, it seems kind of scary and uncomfortable at times. But I'm I'm actually in contact with life for the first time. Uh that's something that's really wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

It is really wonderful. You know, uh I find uh well, just practicing it does bring that that happening, but I I I sometimes I think music is such a wonderful portal. And sometimes I'll listen lately with this new reboot, the rebooted newer version of CJ. Um, sometimes I'll listen to a song from my past and I'll have such clarity of who I was, you know, the young, the young CJ, the kid before he changed to fit the world. You know, and it's just like right, it's just so overpowering. It's like, oh my gosh, this is so great, and it's still there, you know. That's a thing you think, or I think at this point, like, oh, that's long. No, that feeling is still there, still as powerful, still as rich, still as colorful, still as magical as it was when I was 10. And that's that's a special thing, you know?

SPEAKER_01 47:12

Yeah, I I I think also that for me, there's there's an um I could say I could call it maybe a kind of maturity, um also contributes something else to that because I think when I was 10 or 5 or you know, 21 or whatever it was, like there was there was uh there there was that relative aliveness, but there was also um an ignorance that allowed me to then uh close down in that way because because you know I was presented with either either you do the you either you close down, you control yourself, you fit in, or there'll be some consequences for you. You know, you will we won't like you, we will we will exclude you, we will, you know, we won't give you money, whatever it is, you know, we won't give you love, whatever whatever the society has a way of knowing, well, we have a way of knowing what our worst fears are. And then when we perceive that we're threatened with that, it's like, okay, fine, I'll I'll I'll close down, I'll do anything, whatever you want. But now uh this maturity, what I'm calling maturity, is I don't I I can't do that. I you know, really like I know where where that led to. And I know what I know that the consequences of that are too too unbearable, too awful. So I will I just can't do that again. Uh even though the temptation, of course, is still there. It's like ooh, this they're they're not gonna approve of me. Oh, what will they think of me? Yeah, and if I if I uh betray myself to try and get their approval, I lose big time by I'm basically sacrificing my own life, not gonna do that. So that's the maturity that I'm referring to is just I'm gonna choose life, even though it's scary, even though uh it's unknown. And to me, that that makes a huge difference because then uh I but you know, when I was much younger, I could have those moments of this relative kind of aliveness, but it was always uh there was always a condition. If somebody came along and they scolded me or if I was seen doing something and I felt foolish, I was gonna close down and there was no option. I didn't have any where uh awareness of an alternative. And now I have awareness of an alternative. Even if I feel uncomfortable, I know that there is another way. And that makes a huge difference because then I can continue to remain as this aliveness, and I know I'm making this choice even though I'm uncomfortable, even though they may be judging me.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

It's more of a um empowered uh um aliveness, you know. Um, and it's a practice like I do it every day, you know, as I'm zooming through. And if I see something, it's constantly bringing myself back to that, bringing myself back to that, bring, you know, uh always. Um this morning I have a koi pond, and uh I think one of the fish has disappeared. One of my it's a smaller fish, and I don't see her, and I have trouble with cranes, and it pulled me right out. And I had to, and so I was upset about and I had to sit down. So I decided instead, see what my little CJ wants to find out. I want to like drain the pond and see if she's still in there, or and and I thought you can't know the answer. So I just had to sit. And so I sat down on the couch and and just be with it, just be with it. Yeah, maybe she's gone, maybe she's not. And yeah, but so funny, when I just sat there in it and felt it, I noticed the clouds through I have a skylight and I see the clouds moving, and um, and I'm like, look at the beautiful clouds and look how they change shape. And it immediately brought me back to that aliveness and um and also a chapter of my book, but that's another story because I do feel like that that practice does bring us to creativity. I I think so. I agree, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

I mean, I think that creativity is uh fundamentally uh real creativity is uh new. It can't otherwise it's it's a it's a uh replica of something else. So for it to be truly creative, it has to be emerging from the unknown. But uh in order to to allow for that, it's necessary to actually uh be unknown. And that's very uh dangerous, it seems, uh which is why I I think the the artist is uh I I think that that it is ultimately really a spiritual uh practice. Not that all people who we consider them who we consider themselves to be artists or who would be considered by others to be artists are necessarily spiritual practitioners because uh again it depends on is this society often will reward people for what they already know and approve of, right? It's already been done and they're like, oh, we like that, do more of that. Right, right. And and and there's a time and place for that. Uh but to f from my definition, um, I I think real real artistry and real creativity is risky because who knows? You know, maybe other people are not gonna like this. Maybe you won't even like it.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

And and I think in order to be risky, it has to come from that lived experience, that lived now, right now, right now, right now, where I'm at, lived experience. And and uh that's what brings you to that fresh edge, right? Yeah, you know, I love how when you were working with that definition, you were keeping careful to keep it open. You know, like define it, but keep it open. It's important, right? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 54:00

Yeah, I mean I I want to leave that possibility of being surprised. You know, anytime I think I know something, I'm like, yeah, okay, but let me find out. Because I because I don't really know. I don't really know anything.

SPEAKER_00 54:14

I think if you could do that with everything, if you just stay in that place of of not knowing and just like you said, you know, just uh who am I, right? Just be there, you know? Yeah. And people that yeah, it's people that seem so sure they know who they are. That's yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:34

And and and also again, there's a um a practical side to being able to answer the questions. I mean you go if you go to the restaurant and they're like, you know, do you have a reservation? You're like, I don't know. Do you have money? I don't know. I don't know. What do you want to name?

SPEAKER_00 54:52

I don't know. Well then let's call the cops. Well, well, Joey, this has been I hate it's it's already an hour, and um I can tell already, I I I we're just in such an incredible conversation that I'm gonna want to have you come back. I always know, you know, when I meet people that are like special and there's this wonderful engagement of ideas, you know. Um, but so I'm definitely already put you into there. But um, is there anything else you'd want to share with the listeners that that we that you really want to make sure they got from this conversation or that we skittled over or anything?

SPEAKER_01 55:28

Uh the only thing that I would say is that um to me, as I've already said, this is a this is a a living exploration. And so I I don't find an end to it. And uh if anybody who's listening to this is interested in uh exploring more of this through the lens that I share, then um I would invite them to to check out my website. And uh I I have a uh a free guide that anybody can get access to, and that's the uh Real Transformation Guide. They can get that at my website at joeylott.com slash R T for Real Transformation. So that's J-O-E-Y-L-O-T-T dot com slash r t. And uh thank you so much for this conversation. This has been really nice.

SPEAKER_00 56:15

It is nice. I love it. I love it. Uh you you you're making me a better person. You know? So uh thank you, listeners, for following along on this. Um uh Joey does have uh, I'll put it in the bio. He has uh a book available on Amazon, a couple things he's done. You can check him out, check out his bio. Um, also, my book, The Spiritual Artist, is out there on Amazon. Check it out in Spiritual Parable, which helps you align, like I talked about, helps you get into that creative space of being, and then the creativity happens. Okay. So thank you for listening to the Spiritual Artist Podcast. I want you to go out there and be a spiritual artist. Talk to you soon. Thanks again for listening to the Spiritual Artists Podcast. Whether you're watching this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Play, or iHeartRadio, make sure you choose the subscribe button so that you will receive updates when new segments are released. Most importantly, be still, listen, and know that you are a spiritual artist.