Host, Christopher Miller shares Harold Rosenberg’s concept of Action Painting with Painter, Sumi-e Painter, and Collagist Randy Padorr-Black.
Padorr-Black details his understanding of the timeless state of flow, a portal between two zones, time-space and no time-space where intuition creeps into his creative work. He explains that when an artist creates in that space, they create a “portal piece.”
The conversation includes the importance of the meditative state in the creative process. Padorr-Black shares being inspired by Chogyam Trungpa’s book, “Meditation in Action,” and Zen Buddhism, when he was young. He explains how abstract expressionism and Sumi-e painting help him move through fear and unblock his mind.
For more information on Randy Padorr-Black, see his work at www.saatchiart.com/account/artworks/1171775.
Host, Christopher Miller shares Harold Rosenberg’s concept of Action Painting with Painter, Sumi-e Painter, and Collagist Randy Padorr-Black.
Padorr-Black details his understanding of the timeless state of flow, a portal between two zones, time-space and no time-space where intuition creeps into his creative work. He explains that when an artist creates in that space, they create a “portal piece.”
The conversation includes the importance of the meditative state in the creative process. Padorr-Black shares being inspired by Chogyam Trungpa’s book, “Meditation in Action,” and Zen Buddhism, when he was young. He explains how abstract expressionism and Sumi-e painting help him move through fear and unblock his mind.
For more information on Randy Padorr-Black, see his work at www.saatchiart.com/account/artworks/1171775.
Welcome to the spiritual artists podcast. This is Chris Miller. I invite you to join me as I interview artists from a variety of disciplines. We'll share powerful stories and lessons learned while making their art. Good morning. You're listening to the spiritual artist podcast, and this is Chris Miller. I have an exciting guest today. I'm really excited to introduce him. Um, Randy, Pat, or black, he is a local artist in the Dallas Fort worth area. And we have been attracted together I suppose, from my adventures with this spiritual artistry. Um, I met Randy through my Instagram page at the spiritual artists podcast and we, we have automatic syncopation here. Um, we connect so well. Um, so let me introduce Randy.[inaudible] good morning, Randy. Good morning. How are you today?
Speaker 2:I'm doing good. I'm in the flow right now.
Speaker 1:That is great. Let's I am to, uh, folks, Randy, and I've already had like a little pre-conversation and it's almost hard to stop us from talking. There's so many interesting things to talk about, but I was talking to Randy about my book that I'm writing the spiritual artist and how I had discovered an American art critic, uh, Harold Rosenberg, and he defined something that is called action painting. And that is the communication or the recording of your state on campus. Um, I love this term, Randy, and I wanted to bring it up with you because I love your work and it is so open and free. You can just see the movement in it, um, of your brush strokes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I reject it if it's not there, you know, I have a lot of rejections, so you just do it and if it works, it does, does it. And uh, if you, uh, if it works, that's great, but a fear gets in the way
Speaker 1:I think. So we had talked about flow and, um, a lot of my book is about how to maintain that flow. And I would look at your work and say this guy's got it. I mean, there is such a smoothness to your brushstrokes and I'm going to tell the listeners, uh, you use a lot of what I call it. Japanese SUNY brushwork is that
Speaker 2:I've done that too. I really have a lot of iteration for that art form, but I do it on a more abstract way because I don't, I don't do pictures of animals or scenes or whatever, but I've always loved the fluidity of it. And, um, I'm really influenced by Zen when I was in the army of all places, I picked up a book of the library and it was in Zen Buddhism. And then, um, when I was young, my teachers would always say, fill up the canvas, fill up the drawing you're you have too much white space. No, it just didn't feel right. I felt that the white space was important. Well, when I picked up the book on Sam, I realized, you know, they value white space as much as they do the drawing itself or the painting. And, uh, um, then I, I was hooked from that point on,
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting. You bring that up a few episodes back. I interviewed a Michael Parky, he's a landscape architect and he talks about the empty spaces, you know, and it's very important in a painting. I think you're right. So many people want to fill the whole canvas, but sometimes it's, what's not there. That is even more interesting than what is there.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, it's important as important. Um, I think, um, you know, I look at calligraphy cause I've always loved to have, you know, calligraphy, uh, from the East. And, uh, the thing that impresses me is that the white space space, I just left, you know, it's just black and white, you know, that white space reads as importantly as the black
Speaker 1:Randy has a similar background to me, graphic arts. And I think when we use computers, we're so contained to those strong straight lines, you know? And so you realize there's such a freedom in that dappled edge, right? That, that, that in between space, it's not a tight, straight line, like on a computer.
Speaker 2:No, I, I had done that. My saving grace was doing illustration that whole time that I was, I've been doing, doing that graphic design and the illustration was the fun part, you know, cause even though I worked in a computer program called the illustrator, which has her lines and everything, um, uh, my style was pretty much almost grabbing the key slide as far as that the cut paper period that he was working the JS series. And, uh, so that's what got me interested in doing that on computer, but we'd really bold colors and everything and really flat colors, you know? And then, uh, you know, when I got into collage recently, you know, and that's when I started painting the paper that I used and then putting that in the collage.
Speaker 1:Okay, well we were, when we talked about this, so I want to give us a chance to talk about this. We talked about flow, you know, that's how we connected and I brought it to you that there is a flow to a painting. And, and you just made a point earlier that there's a fee. Sometimes you have to get past the fear to get to that a fear to get past. How would you explain that process? What is the fear that holds us back?
Speaker 2:I'm making a mistake, you know, nobody wants to ruin a canvas or, or ruin them, uh, you know, uh, a paper that they're working on, they may have spent, you know, you know, six or$7 for that piece of paper. Cause you know, they want to use the archival good quality paper, so wants to have to throw it away. I think one of the advantages of doing collages along with pains is that if I failed a collage, um, you know, it's not that big a deal, you know,$7 paper. But if I fail at a painting, like I said, I can recycle or if I see something, some aspect of it that, um, that I like, uh, as a matter of fact, I did a painting not too long ago where there was one part of a painting. I really liked the wrestlers, just a failure. So what I did is I just blew that area up into a nice,
Speaker 1:You know, I, I have that in my book. I talk about focus on what's working, you know, like you just said, find that area that's working and blow it up. Um, I'm sure there's artists out there that have, sometimes I blow it up by expanding it on the canvas. Sometimes I blow it up by actually cutting the canvas down. I've literally taken a sheet of paper and it cut my painting down to the area that I think is, is working, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that too. Yeah. It's like, well, I can look at it and say, if it's a, I did a Sui drawing not too long ago or painting parts of it, fail parts of it were really, really nice. So I'll just frame it and just I'll frame it into a real small space and do that.
Speaker 1:Um, you get that just that little bit, that looks perfect and beautiful and you, and you keep it. So, and I wanted to comment on something you said earlier, too. I think as an artist, we, we get inhibited by the cost of what we're working with, whether it's the paint or the canvas, it's only when, you know, you have to almost liberate yourself from that responsibility, you know, and, and know that sometimes it's gonna be a wasted piece of a good paper or, uh, some good acrylic that you're going to lose, but you have to break through that fear too, don't you? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I remember, I don't know. The castle said it or somebody who said it about Picasso is that, um, he didn't feel like he had to do a masterpiece every time he painted, you know, he just painted, you know, and, and um, when I read that, I thought, well, that's cool. Cause he wasn't at his stuff has a fearlessness to it. And that's why it's really good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And so let's talk about that too, because you and I had talked about earlier and when I see your work, I see this wonderful movement through it. And I do, I see a fearlessness where you're hitting that canvas. It's large with these wonderful strokes, you know, it's definitely, you're definitely a great Mark maker. You know, I love that term and I love the marks you make. I love the way you're, you're isolating the composition. But when we talk about this process of flow, that we feel you, you had mentioned something about, I had mentioned what time disappears time disappears when I do this. And you said you had a theory for that. So I'm curious as to what your theory is,
Speaker 2:My theory is that you should imagine, um, you're looking for Y okay. And three dimensional and you're from the ground to the sky is the world of time and space and causation. This is the time, you know, time matters cause and effect matters. And then below the horizon, uh, into the earth neighbor, if you want to look at it that way, is it timeless, intuitive place? You know? So that is really, um, that's what you're tapping into as far as I'm concerned, when you're you enter that zone. And what happens is that you create a portal, um, between the two zones, the time space and a no time space. And when you're doing creativity, creativity of any kind. And, uh, now I would preface it saying that creativity is Disney. It doesn't necessarily have to be artistic. No, it can be working on a engineering problem that can be working on a design in an architectural, uh, you know, a house or something like that, or ruse and, you know, salvia a problem in theoretical physics. You know, uh, when you're in that zone, you open up that portal. And so that, that portal you're allowing the timeless, you know, intuitive to creep up into the outer world. And so where you working in that portal, you're in a timeless zone, even though you're technically your, me, maybe you sit in a desk and you think that, you know, I'm here in time-space causation, you know, but when that portal is open, um, there isn't that that flow is coming from, from the depths of your intuition, into the outer world. And so that's why you have no sense of time.
Speaker 1:Hmm that's that's wonderful. I, I, I have often thought that when not painted, sometimes I'll do a really great piece of work in such a short amount of time. Other times I'll stretch and stretch and work on a piece of work for a long period of time, because I think it's the quality of that connection. You know, you talk about that portal. I think, I think what my paintings record is the quality of that connection when I did it.
Speaker 2:Correct. And now I like it too. When I did that, I've done meditation for decades. And a lot of people say, well, God, just sit there and do nothing for 10 minutes or 15 minutes, you know? And, um, and these are time-space causation people and they go, that's sort of stupid, you know, well, I know I just don't get it, you know, and you know, for years I didn't get it either, but I did it. I'm sort of a act of faith, you know, but, uh, what's interesting is I found basically you're opening up that portal when you meditate. And so when you're doing a painting, you're doing, you're looking for a manifestation of that intuition when you're meditating, you're not looking for a manifestation, you're just trying to get new mind. And so you really train that connection so that you can open up that portal sorta I'm command. And, uh, like you say, some days are portal opens up and it's great. And some days it just does more, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. We all, we all have that experience, you know, and, and I, I've learned to give myself permission if it's not opening, you can only, you can't force that portal. Right. I mean, meditation is not about for
Speaker 2:Nope. On intuition, you know, and I think that, you know, when you say sometimes you can just, you just sit there and bam, bam, bam, bam, and it's done. And it's like, you know, and it's, it just has that energy. You know, my, my philosophy is that, uh, the reason that the general public can look into what is called an artistic masterpiece, you know, and feel the same thing, even though it was done 200 or 300 years ago, is that when that artist was in that portal, that what they created and manifested is it is like, has that it's in the DNA of that piece. So when you see it, you sense that DNA. And so, uh, you know, that, you know, okay, that's a portal place, you know, and yet I, you know, I had a friend who we used to, um, he lived in Pennsylvania and he would, uh, he was an artist. He would send these JPEGs and Stephanie you're done. I tell them all, no, that's crap. This one's really good. And, uh, uh, so over time, several years, you know, um, you know, he really, really got good, you know, he's a great artist. And the key one is he would send her out to all his Facebook friends. Well, it's funny the ones that I liked, they also liked, but they weren't like our critics. They weren't artists in the true sense, but they recognize that energy
Speaker 1:Well, it's like they recognize the basic humanness of it or the, the, uh, what I would like to term it, spirituality, the spiritualness of it, you know, that's why I call it the spiritual artists, um, uh, Randy, the more you talk, I'm like, wow, we were twins separated at birth, you know, because I really, um, agree with everything you're saying. And I think that when you approach that canvas, it is a type of meditation for me. I have to do a sort of meditation to get grounded and then, and then I act, and then I perform,
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have your ritual ritual, you know, how do you get into that space? What are you doing?
Speaker 1:Oftentimes, I love nature. So I have a big window in my studio and I just sit there calmly. And I watched nature and I, and, and I call it, I call it a moments of awe, but I look for signs of that creative energy in nature, you know, just the explosion of a bird building, its nest or a tree growing, or, or a spider making a web, like on the awning of the house. And I just see all that creativity and I just feel it, you know, I just, I just feel
Speaker 2:Right. Intuition, you know, I don't think there's a single artist that doesn't have their form of intuition, you know, their, their portal, you know, how they open them, throw themselves up to it. You know what I mean? And I really believe that you have sometimes where you might have a streak of a couple of weeks where your portal is not working, or you just don't want to look at her number another campus for awhile. And that's great. You take some time off.
Speaker 1:Right, right. And give yourself permission to take the time off, you know, because the more you push, the more you push to it. And that's what I call surrender. I actually, the more you push the further away you get. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. Or the grant read the piece, Oh my God, you look at it. Or sometimes I'll get away from it and then come back the next morning. And I go, Oh my God. You know, I'll just take that and turn that canvas toward the wall and start over.
Speaker 1:I do the same thing. It goes either way though. Sometimes I'll think this is fantastic. And then I get up the next morning. I go, Oh my Lord. And then in some, and sometimes the opposite. Sometimes I'll be doing something, I'll go, Oh, this isn't working. And then I get up and I'm like, wow,
Speaker 2:Wow. This is working well, a lot of people don't post stuff on Instagram and to see how people react to it. And, uh, it's, it's interesting. You say, you think I'm done and, uh, they'll I guess judge, you know, cause they're too close to it. They, they can't get away from it. And so they'll put it on posts on Instagram and it's all the whole world to see, you know, that's a, you have to be ruthless to put your stuff up and say, what do you think?
Speaker 1:I think so too. And I think that, you know, I, I, I would prefer to encourage artists to, to not do that because I think that when you know what, going back to, I'm going to go back to Harold Rosenberg when he talks about action painting, this is a personal expression of you on the canvas. And so if I start saying, well, what do you think? What do you think then it becomes a personal expression of Fred or Sally. You see what I mean?
Speaker 2:Right, right. I agree. I don't, I never myself, I don't do that. I don't put something on Instagram and until I'm happy with it, cause I don't want people to think, Oh, that's a piece of crap, you know? Or sometimes I'll post something and I'll look back and say, God, Oh well, and then I'll take it off of my collection because I realized that it wasn't where it should've been.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It wasn't up to what you, what you consider a good piece of work. And it's funny, I've taken so many classes, uh, you know, um, with teachers and I'll get frustrated when students will walk around the room and they're always asking her like, what do you think of my work? What do you think of my work? And, and, and I really do believe that a good teacher teaches you to, to look within and make those decisions within
Speaker 2:Right now I've taught college for 20 years and, uh, as an adjunct. And, uh, I, uh, I, and so in that time period, um, I found that, uh, the students, it's better to give a little suggestion and then see how they take it and go with it instead of, uh, move this here, move this here, you know, cause that, you know, you always have students that, that don't want to think, you know, and the sad part about it is I found over the last 20 years that I taught is that students started, uh, or stopped thinking more and more. And I don't know if that was because of, uh, you know, there are so bombarded with information. Uh, they want it fed to them, but, uh, you know, if I was, and I wasn't, one of the few people will never ties him. I understood conceptual thinking. And so if I was teaching advertising class that would teach conceptual thinking and when I started, maybe half the class will get it. And when I ended 20 years later, about one or two people will get it in class. So it's like now maybe it's time for me to move up.
Speaker 1:Well, I think, I think, I think it's interesting that you say that because I think a good artist is teaching you how to interact with the world, but also how to interact internally. You know, you talk about entering that, but that below line, that line of timelessness, um, that is an internal experience. You know, I don't think you enter it by asking Fred what he thinks about your painting. I think you enter it by listening to that voice inside.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's why sometimes I'll I'll sleep on it. You know, the, uh, native Americans, when they're having a big decision, they sleep, they don't then sometimes for two or three days before they make a decision. And I think they, they want to dream about, and in our dream world, a lot of people connect to them to the place in your dreams. You know, you may not even know it or not, but, uh, they want to, they want to sleep on it so that they get some perspective and space between, uh, the dis you know, them in the decision. And I, cause they're getting into touch with that intuitive world.
Speaker 1:I find that I get that messaging right. Between deep, right. When I'm like either waking up or falling asleep, you know, that inner, that medium place. Right. And suddenly I'll be like, Oh, Oh, and I'll see a shape or, or hear a phrase. Cause you know, I also right. You're right. It's I sometimes if we just give ourselves time to process it and, and some people would say, that's putting that down into your subconscious, you know, um, we talk about Buddhism. It's, it's that subconscious level of who we are and, and weak, it keeps working on the problem, you know?
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely. Yeah. And that's where you learn from meditation, you know, uh, sometimes you can hold the thought, maybe something you want to resolve and then you go into meditation and you like out your mind, you allow it to, uh, to come up. So to say your solution, that's what I call'em. Uh, I think I called a meditation in action. And a lot of times I got to a point where I was meditating and it's like, well, I'm just sitting here meditating, man, what can I do to bring this out into the outside world? You know? Well, creativity does that because you're manifesting in the physical world, but also, you know, um, how does meditation give you a perspective? And I found that it improves kindness, kindness, empathy, you know, a broader grander sense of what's going on around you and your world and everything. And so, uh, that's something that can only come through concentrating as you do things in the world, not sitting there meditating. So that's meditation and action. It's like a, um, a frame of mind, you know, you take, you know, if someone comes up and they really make you mad, you know, okay. I picked, it just said that it's not the things that happen to us. It's how we react to the things we, that happened to us. That's a very profound statement. And so you can react to a couple of different ways, you know, uh, meditation, it gives you that it gave me a governor, something that, uh, that when I'm, um, out in the world and something comes up or if I'm saying I wasn't advertising it very stressful. And, uh, I could bring that governor in and bring myself down just without doing a couple of debriefing exercises. And then, um, uh, that helped me to be aware of what I was doing in the world and bring that consciousness to the world. Um, cause meditation just meditating. Um, unless you use that, doesn't do anything, you know, and, uh, but uh, you meditating, um, inaction allows you to do that.
Speaker 1:Hmm. I like that. Now, do you feel that you meditate in action when you're actually painting
Speaker 2:Definitely your hair? That's almost sort of obvious, but when you're dealing with someone who just pissed you off and you okay. Pins and needles, needles, and pins, and say happy person who brings, you know, you're a lawyer, how are you going to react to that person? You know, and up that to me is the true, uh, um, I remember Swami said, you want to know how powerful you are, um, look at your daily life and find God and see how many people throw you off balance. If you don't, you get thrown off balance by people or situations, then you're not powerful, you know? And, uh, and, uh, the power is being able to sort of, uh, um, I'm not sure I call it Bobby and you, but the thing is, is that something comes up. I think it is a personal challenge to bring kindness and empathy to it, you know? Okay. Maybe this person had a bad day, you know, maybe, uh, the empathy is that it comes from that or, uh, just, you know, I'll just try to maintain my composure. I don't think that anger really resolves anything. It's better to separate from the wild we'll come back and then talk about it, you know? So it made her meditative state of mind gate, uh, and gave me that ability to do that in the real world. So meditation in action, I think it was where I first started. It was there. I think it was true poet, Rimbaud shade did a book, uh, and called meditation actually. And a little review then I thought, yeah, that's what I need to do. So I stopped meditating for awhile. I wanted to see how I could bring that into the physical world without having to do meditation. And so I found that I could still do that, you know, uh, to a certain degree. I mean, I guess these enlightened people that real heavy duty spiritual, uh, people can do that all the time when there's no effort because they're in that state of mind, but, um, it's good practice.
Speaker 1:Well, it is. And you know, everybody, it's just all practice. We just keep practicing it every day. You, you learn to, to practice it. And for me, you're right. I learned to be aware of, for example, I learned to listen to my thoughts when I was painting, because when I started painting, I would hear thoughts in my head like, Oh, you're terrible. And so I started to isolate myself and say, is that true? Am I terrible? You know? And, and, and, and stand back from my thoughts. And so what you're talking about is yes, once you do that in front of the canvas or the creative process, then you go out into the world and you find that you're talking to a coworker and you're thinking you're terrible or whatever. And, you know, is that true? Is it because they like this color instead of this color? Is it true that they're terrible? No, you know,
Speaker 2:You have to, I call it double responsibility because you have the responsibility for your reaction and you're taking on the responsibility of the other person's point of view. Maybe they had a bad day, you know, you know, maybe there's something's going on in their life and they're taking it out on you. Or maybe they're, you know, they're just overall attitude is because, uh, you know, something happened or somebody died in the family. And I find that it's so much better to take that double responsibility. Um, even if they're saying nasty things about you, you know, you still, I mean, I have to be around them, but the thing is, is that you don't have to be pulled into that. You know?
Speaker 1:Definitely, definitely. And I would like to, um, uh, repeat that with your, with the listeners in, in with a different aspect too. Um, I found that when I paint or when I'm doing something creative, it's the same thing. We need to be compassionate with ourselves, you know, you know, that's the hardest thing, right? It's easy to it's, you know, w if we make that mistake or we, we just waste a nice piece of paper, whatever that compassionate with ourselves and say, it's okay, you know, uh, give him, what did he say? The double considerations double. Yeah, because in to ourselves, because there's a part of us, uh, that are often, or we're so critical, you know, and, and when you sit in front of that canvas, you have to move through that. You have to move through that fear.
Speaker 2:Uh there's uh, some guy that we became friends with it, and, uh, he worked on wood and he, he builds up surfaces on his paintings and everything. And if it's not going well, he takes the belt belt to Sandra and starts taking it off, you know? And so that's like his, his white out, you know? And so, uh, well joke too, that, uh, you know, with the belt standard, you know, it's a metaphor, you know, it allows us to go fearlessly into the creation and knowing that you have some kind of fallback, you know, you have, you have something where you can go a different direction. If you need to, you know, we can always paint over something, you know? And, uh, so, um, when we go at it with, uh, sometimes a ruthlessness, you know, and, uh, that little voice comes on and says, Oh, this is not looking very good. And then you come back into the next day, you can, you know, paint over or use your belt sander, and then bam, you're, you're right back in it again,
Speaker 1:It's funny. I usually think of white out, but I don't think of belt Sanders, but you know, you're right. I think that getting past that fear of a mistake that you can always change it, you can always tweak it, you know, you can always erase it with about sander,
Speaker 2:Right, right. Or white painter, whatever, you know, and that's, what's great about it. So that to me helps me, keeps me fearless to a certain extent, because if it's going in the wrong direction, I know I can paint over that area and then come back at it, you know, in a looser way. So it doesn't lose the spontaneity that I'm looking for, you know? And I, and sometimes they just don't work out. You know, you gotta take that canvas and turn toward the wall and not look at it.
Speaker 1:Do you ever turn it back, Randy?
Speaker 2:Yeah. But I'm still turn back again. It might be something like I said, though, sometimes I'll take a little piece out and cut it out and use it in the collage. So it's like, I'm recycling.
Speaker 1:It is recycling. And it's always fun. I think when you do a piece of work or you paint over something almost entirely, and there's just that little piece, you know, a little piece of something I remember years ago, I was so frustrated when I was just starting to paint and I started writing. I kid you not swear words into the canvas. I started writing swear words. And then I came back, I was calm. I grounded myself and I painted over it. But at the art show, I could still see a little bit of that F
Speaker 2:Sparkly.
Speaker 1:It is, it's part of recording that action, recording your state, recording your emotional state.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You gotta be fearless.
Speaker 1:So as we wind this down, if what would you tell our listeners that that's the biggest way to go into that fearlessness? What would you advise them? How to be fearless when they are doing it an act of creativity, whether it's painting or writing, or
Speaker 2:Don't think about the cost of the paper or the camp, um, you know, just when you got you get that canvas, I base by several canvases and I don't. Um, and so, you know, I'm looking at those they're set aside. So I look at it as a piece of paper, you know, so if I screw up the canvas, I can just put it face toward the wall, pull out another one, you know, so that, I think it's a biggest fear of, you know, for artists, you know, that it's the price of what you're putting into it, you know? Cause you put in a lot of paint too, and that costs money, you know? So you gotta get past the price point and, uh, uh, and that's it. And then just sort of, I mean, everybody has their ritual, you know, I used your out your window at nature. I stare at the canvas until something just sort of manifests like that space on their bike and was needing some. And so take out Russian and some paint and I'll just put something down, you know? And then, then I start, you know, at first brushstroke is the arts.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I found it easier. One of my exercises to just do a bunch of scribble Scrabble, you know, all over the canvas. And then I sit down and look for something that grabs my eye. And then I, I play in pool on that, you know, whether it's the colors or the composition or the texture, you know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's one of the things like, that's the thing I like about to Eastern art and assuming painting, um, because it's like watercolor and I probably always had her respectful watercolors cause you put it down, that's it, you know, that takes a lot of judgment and a lot of fearlessness, you know, so assuming painting sometimes that loosens me up. So I'll go in there and know I got my 16 by 20% paper and um, I'll look at it then I'll start with a brush stroke. And uh, if that looks good and there was a located 30% grade restaurant, I'm going to go full black on this set and I'll get the black cake out and just put something down. I'm not thinking, trying to think. No. So that's how I overcome my fearlessness is that, um, and potential for success and failure is equal right there. And, and knowing when to stop, that's the thing, you know, uh, that's what I like about the immediacy of a scenic painting is that you have to stop at some point. Uh, I see a lot of people posting their opinions on Instagram and that's a great thing about Instagram. I see stuff from all over the world. In the old days, you had to go to the library to see that stuff. And you saw the same stuff all the time. Uh, whereas this way, you know, you see what's going on out there. And, uh, uh, I see some people attempting Sumi painting, um, that you can tell them mine was blocked when they did it. Uh, just like I can look at my stuff and you know, my mind is too too much. My mind was in that pain.
Speaker 1:Hmm. Well, I love that. I love, I love this conversation because I've, I have started this podcast that there's a unique universality to all creative endeavors, but talking to another painter, obviously since I'm a painter, it's, it's exciting. And, and this, this whole concept of assuming brushwork and how it is recording, I it's fascinating.
Speaker 2:And it loosens you up, you know, uh, that's sellable. I, I I'm, I'm one, I'm sort of the, one of my favorite artists was a Motherwell. And I liked because he did, he did collage, but then he also did these massive pains or small paintings or whatever. And, and, uh, he would do, you said you had a writer's block one time. And so he, when summer, uh, or not writer's block put up a painter's block. And, uh, he was sitting there, so he did like 500 little Pete. You just do an over and over and over and over again, these little paintings. And then eventually, um, something finally clicked and he moved out of it, you know? And, and that was like, as soon as he painted, he did that to loosen himself up, not to worry, to become fearless. And that way he felt he had become fearful. And, um, uh, I mentioned, you know, I've read some stuff where he said, you know, he would ask his assistance and they say, well, it looks like a great show and you'd have all this pieces up before he put them up. And they were just going to put them up in needs. What can at least, I think know if any of this is good, you know? And so his assistant would have to talk him into it. You know, there's always there. That fear is always, is always there, but by I like, I jumping to assuming painting for me a collage and then painting, I have these three disciplines that are really elect different than HR. And so I'll move from one to the other one. I get bored with one I'll move to another, and it really helps me get some perspective of heart.
Speaker 1:There's so many things here. So many things for our listeners to focus on. I love that jumping back and forth between what I call tools in your toolbox, you know, and, and enter and interplaying them or doing that rapid fire, just a rapid fire quick. Uh, I think the word I've always taught gestural is that correct? Just guessed real gestural gestural drawings.
Speaker 2:Well, what you were alluding to that, uh, they talked about the, she was a, I forget what his name was, you know, Rosenberg. Yeah. That's what he was talking about is that immediacy of the, uh, you know, of that school of art when they started out and they were breaking all the rules, but they were, they were really into this sort of like, do whatever comes into your mind, you know, don't restrict yourself when you're. So they were talking about this fearlessness and that spontaneity, you know, and that seminar student said was really big in the West at that time in the fifties and early sixties, you know? And so, uh, uh, even, um, you know, historically they were, when they were rebuffing, everything that was happening in Europe and they decided to do this new school, um, they were breaking all the rules and one of the rules is that loosen up, you know, that fearlessness will come out. That'll be that, that thing that connects with the viewer when they see it. I remember one time I followed, uh, a whole bunch of kids that are doing the tour through the art Institute, Chicago. And I thought, I want to just follow it wrong and see what the teacher is telling the kids. And what I learned is that the things that they, the paintings that they most responded to were van Gogh and duh, it's why he, there was nothing between him and his emotion when, what he put down on the canvas, was it emotion, you know? And, uh, they responded to that, you know, the, the tight, you know, lets perfect perfectly realistic stuff that boredom, but they like the abstract expressionism or they or the impressionists. And so they responded,
Speaker 1:Wow. Is that emotion recording that emotion on canvas being immediate, being fearless? Well, I want to thank you for taking the time there's I probably have to bring you back for other conversations, but, but I love this conversation. I love that. We've, we've explored this on a, on a broad spectrum, so many things here. Um, and I definitely might have you come back in some future date. I love this concept of the Sumi brush work and how you can incorporate that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love it. You know, it's a, it's a, it really frees you up and it's also so easy to make them sick, you know, and then be fearless. And then you bring up the sander and you sand that mistake. What are your words? Whenever it gets, that's how you, you, uh, start over in a part of opinion, you know, but I thought it was a, like a metaphor that we always have an out, you know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. We always have a now, so Hey, I will put your bio and your artwork on the, on this, uh, podcast that people can read it at the bottom. I encourage people to look at your work because like I said, I respond to it. I respond to the freedom of it. It's really nice and open and airy and I love it. I love it.
Speaker 2:I like your, I like your at work do there. I can see some of the background
Speaker 1:I'm getting more and more fearless.
Speaker 2:Yes. How's that? So, alright. Will you take, take care of Randy and we'll we'll talk again soon. Okay. Sounds great. Thanks lot.
Speaker 1:Thanks again for listening to the spiritual artist podcast, whether you're watching the show on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google play, or iHeartRadio, make sure you choose the subscribe button so that you will receive updates when new segments are released, most importantly, be still listen and know that you are a spiritual artist.